MMP5: Geopolitics for the Web: The Uneasy Alliance Between Marketing and IT

Chris Heiland 
Web Developer, University of Washington

Jason Beard 
Web Designer, Seattle University

The audio for this podcast can be downloaded at

Speaker: This is one in a series of podcasts from the HighEdWeb Conference in Austin 2011.

Jason Beard: I am Jason Beard. I'm the web designer for Seattle University. I've worked as a web designer at four universities - American College of Professional Education, University of Washington's Engineering Program, University of Washington Bothell and now of course Seattle University. I designed my first professional website in 1996 and I get nervous in front of groups larger than seven people.


Chris Heiland: Hi! My name is Chris Heiland. If you can't hear me just throw out some hands or grow flares here. Something else that make me talk a little bit louder. I'm the web helper at University of Washington. I worked in the marketing department. I've done WebWork for universities, non-profits and a smattering of other clients and fund projects. I started coding with C++ back in '98. After, I got scared away from college for a couple of years and I got back into webbuilding in couple of years later.



I type on Dvorac mostly to be more efficient but does not anyone try to use my keyboard. So we worked in a Bothell code for about two years. Jason did the design, front-end development, managed the campus content editors and populate the government efforts. I managed the web servers, web applications, a little bit of back-end development, well actually I love the back-end development and a little bit of front-end development.

Basically, together we got things done. We worked each in different departments. I worked in central IT. Jason worked in marketing but we we're effective.



And as you do, eventually, we left for greener pastures. I left to University of Washington and Jason left to Seattle University, as you can tell. Sadly, the address did not seem to bring further along. We had a few brand patches of servers to appear. We encounter some new problems, we both in our respective institutions, and we got frustrated eventually.

Before I had settled upon a successful relationship between marketing and IT, two organizations that have different perspectives, different organizational goals, how to get along well with parties, as long there's a peace treaty available in between. So we had something that worked. We wanted to know why. We set on addition to understand why. We wanted to get down to the root of the issue. We started looking at existing research and opinions.



Then we get our own research. We asked our colleagues, you, to the survey.

Jason Beard: I know somebody filled it out. So thank you for those that filled it out, for the rest of you .

Chris Heiland: And from that, we collected a lot of information.

Jason Beard: We're not as bad as him and we don't sell your data. So the survey, we posted a note and knock on a few list serves. We have it tested on a Facepic and not Facebook and on Twitter. We ended up surveying over a 120 institutions. We asked for demographic information. We asked which departments on campus were responsible for what. We asked how centralized their efforts were on a scale of one to seven, and we asked how successful they thought that they were. And you might be wondering how did we define success. We didn't. We let the survey respondents decide if they're successful. For some people, it's merely staying above water.



For others, it's winning national words. So we want the people to be able to judge for themselves if they're successful or not. After we got our quantitative data in a nice huge excel spreadsheet, (is this better?) we wanted some, qualitative data as well. So we ended up calling about 20% of the survey respondents. We got backstories. We got explanations about why they just filled out, what they had. We got some histories of departments and histories of universities help explain what they were doing and why.

So what is a web team according to us? We see the web team is providing six functions. The first is design. This is mockups, wireframes, colors, graphics, anything that makes the website pretty. Second is, front-end development - HTML's, CSS, Javascript - that type of thing.



Back in development, this is Chris's domain - server-side languages, making sure the servers don't explode, coding deployment, your DBAs would live in this department.

Content, this is anything written or text or graphics or anything like that on the web.

User support, this is when people call you because they don't understand how your CMS works or why they don't understand why they're extremely lengthy and verbose page isn't' getting many hits.

And finally, overall governance. This is the 10,000 foot view, leadership, management, everything that holds the organization together. So let's talk about the data.

Chris Heiland: What's everyone doing? So, now for some graphs. Among the institution surveys, we'll talk about this on first. An interesting trend here is that IT is only running about 5% of managing the actual design.



This is certainly a different trend than what we used to see where web was entirely encased in IT. They set up a trend as the goals of website is shifted from something that you run because you have to to a marketing effort to something extremely focused.

Next up is front-end development. Surprisingly, marketing is not a bigger chunk of actually transforming that design into something real, something can be done. They are part of it but certainly not a huge part of it.

Now back in developments, a little bit surprised of how big the chunk marketing has. IT still has fairly sizable percentage of what they're doing at this point. So there's a graph and there's another graph coming up.


So many universities have struggled with their content. It's publicated. It's a lovely 34% of all surveys. Not many people have figured this out yet. Also for support, it's not really clear on this one. Quite across the board. You should own this.

Governance, there is a worst chunk from marketing however there is a, secondly, a large chunk from, it's complicated. We never would said that about governance. Success. Here as some at least good numbers. Seventy nine percent report success is part of design. Seventy five for front-end developments. I'm sorry, I said 79. This is 79 for back end and 75 front in, both good numbers.


Six percent for content.

Next, we have 69% for support, thirdly we get well rhythm we had for front end for design.

And lastly, we have 66% success for governance. And these numbers were holy shocking, very interesting.

Now each of these were describing the role individually. So for a larger perspective, we look also at collective data for what's happening across the board. First, 4.1% of the surveys had a very successful across the board.

On the other hand, we only had just short of 6% report that they either had some unsuccessful or very unsuccessful. The good news is very unsuccessful across the board, we could not find.



We actually had zero response to say that.

Jason Beard: Similarly, most people are in the middle. So what are the common themes that identified from the quantitative and the qualitative data. Most institutions like the property resources to be successful. How many of you are shocked by that?


Web teams are too small and most departments don't have the ability or the money to outsource. They don't have the ability to be flexible enough to hire for new jobs. We're constantly being asked to do more without being given anymore resources. And a few of the folks that I've talked to said that, really, anything you give me will help, more time, more money, more people. Anything will help me do better. We want to avoid situations like this.

So I'm to tell you a story of the first redesign I did for you at Bothell.



I was hired in middle of July in 2006 with the mandate of launching a new websites at the end of September 2006. And frankly, I didn't have the experience to get this done. I did it anyway. We launched it the day we had do. In Thursday night, 10 pm, I was my office. He was on speaker phone in his office. Trying to launch this thing. We had a lousy system. We had a lousy experience. We had lousy CSS and HTML.

Whereas this person describe the website as being made out of spit and ceiling wax, I described it at that time as being held together with duct tape, chicken wire and clapboard. It took a couple of years in building infrastructure in order for you at Bothell to be successful. There's also a desire for campus leadership to be more involved. Campus leadership's plans priorities for physical plant, for human resources and for academic growth, we know, what major is going to be coming online next year or what majors are going to be cut.



We, as a community, think that we should be doing that for marketing and for web as well. There's also a desire for campus leadership to be willing to take risks. Technology changes often. Sometimes we have to manage the change that we wish to see in our own organizations. We have to show small winds. Show that sometimes we can do things that are successful to build momentum.

We need to find a way to make leadership excited about what we're proposing. So, this is a gentleman I talked to at Bothell University. So the president's cabinet understands the strategic value of the web. How many of you in this room can say the same thing about your presidents?



So that's pretty good.

At Bothell, they're started out as a one person team, the one person vendor running their entire website. Now they've got 11 people on staff. And it was because they're able to convince leadership that what they were dong was a good idea and they're able to show results quickly. Well most institutions are successful in most areas. And this kind of goes back to the numbers that Chris talked about earlier with the 4.1% thing that everything is super hunky dory and the 5.74% saying that they've got some major problems. Most of us are in the middle and most of us are doing better than we probably let on.

We also have found that our jobs are constantly evolving. Technology is changing. The tools are changing and many of us are trying to add mobile websites. Some of us are trying to add social media to our teams. So how many of you are being asked to do this right now on your teams?



How many of you were given more stuff to do it?

Chris Heiland: All the hands went down.

Jason Beard: Yeah. So we got two.


Jason Beard: OK.


Jason Beard: Congratulations.


Jason Beard: OK.

Audience: Well that common here.

Jason Beard: Yeah.

Audience: Yes.

Jason Beard: But that's a rarity.

We also found that there's a strong correlation between centralization of teams and the success that those teams were having. There's a constant struggle between independence on our campuses and unification. And sometimes, it's part of universities' culture to be independent. So this is from Steve McConnell and I think I saw Steve in this room here today. Our schools and departments are fiercely independent. Any effort to force centralization is doomed to fail.


On the other hand, some universities were able to centralize very, very well. So, this is from David Jaeger, Florida Gulf Coast University, so young university in 1987. They're able to call this power with no problems. So what does this all mean?

Chris Heiland: How can we interpret the double rainbows? First thing is we need to communicate better. Sure, none of you have had this problem where there is a slight disconnect between the IT department and the web department. Yeah, I don't think so. Some university have very poor correlations with other departments.

How do we overcome communication problems? First thing is meet early and meet often. Set expectations early in the project, write them up so that you can refer back to them later on, schedule regular meetings, speak face-to-face, even if there's not much to talk about. Non-verbal cues are very important in communication in general.

Also, we have to speak the same language. Developers think differently than designers, designers think differently than writers, and the VP thinks differently than everyone. Use metaphors, graphs, break out the white board, charts, whatever you have to do to clearly convey the ideas that you're presenting.

Jason Beard: When I meet with my developers, I like having one of those big double-wide boards, because frankly I don't have the vocabulary to speak to them effectively, but I can draw things really good.

This is one of my favorite comics. This is what the vice-president sounds like to a designer. It's also what a designer might sound like to a developer. So something to keep in mind.


Dictating a solution limits the expert's options. I'm a design expert, he's a development expert. If I were to come to him and say, 'I need this done and I need it done a certain way,' that stifles his creativity.

Chris Heiland: I'll resent that. As developers, for those of you who are in the room, we're professional problem-solvers. We want to be able to apply a unique and creative solution to whatever the problem is. If I'm told, 'I need you to do this and I need you to do it this way,' and 'Oh, yeah, can you have that done by the end of the day?' I'm going to resent that. Probably some of you would, too.

Jason Beard: It creates barriers to a healthy relationship, and that's what we need to do is build relationships with other departments on campus. We need to know them well enough to know whether to bring coffee or Mountain Dew or both. It helps to form a personal relationship.

Get to know them just a little bit on a personal level. It will help you in the future when you forget to plan and they need to come and save your bacon. You should be more like the United States and Canada and less like the United States and Iran.


Christina Heikkila: "We have easy access to the IT server guys. They're our buddies." Very helpful.

If you can, unify your departments to facilitate communication. They communicate better, they see each other face-to-face a lot, it's much easier to get stuff done. You can avoid the whole silo situation.

This is another quote from Michael Vedders at Bethel: "When you're on the outside of the IT office, you get a different level of access to tools, knowledge, and resources." Having those guys really close by is really, really helpful.


Chris Heiland: Adapt to your environment. If you can't centralize your web team, you have to adapt.

Jason Beard: Two "Star Trek" references.


Chris Heiland: Thank you.

Invest in better equipment and tools. It will save you money and time in the long run.

Jason mentioned the core CMS that Lenovo had for a while. At the time, before that project actually started, we had the CMS on campus. It was Dreamweaver, no pattern, and empty.

So we were looking at a CMS that would actually run off the Web and something that our editors could use and not have to call us with how to run Dreamweaver or 'Why if I do this does the entire page break?' or 'How can I get the template?' 'Oh, yeah, well, let me email that to you.' Things that we love doing.


So we started researching and we found this great system called Bricolage, and it would solve all of our problems. It would run off the Web, it would allow our editors to make updates at any time they wanted to. They wouldn't have to contact us. We wouldn't be essentially the bottleneck for any changes that they had to go through. They'd be able to click 'publish' and make it go live. It was going to be fantastic.

We actually ran it for about a year and a half.

Jason Beard: The major problem with Bricolage was that it was completely unusable to the average editor.


Jason Beard: People would avoid using the CMS because it was so difficult to use. And of course, since they wouldn't use it very often, they'd wait three or four months to update their pages. So not only did we have outdated content, they forgot how to use it when they had to go back and use it, and then, that's when they called us.

We solved this problem by moving to a new CMS, just a few years after we had installed Bricolage, called Kentico CMS. If any of you are familiar with it, well, even if you aren't, I recommend it. We have some really great success with it.


The best thing about Kentico is that it was easy to use. People liked using it. It was pretty. It had a shallow learning curve.

What it did is, the better tools made it easier for them to update their website. This is what they also did at Dartmouth College. You make the barrier eventually very, very low and people update their pages a lot more often.

Focus on what's important. I'll read this quote here: "It's a gigantic coral reef with hundreds of layers, many of which are dead. Enhance what's living and strip away the rest."

Chris Heiland: For any of you who are not at institutions that this may sound vaguely familiar at, I'll tell you a little bit about ours. At U-Dub, we are going to celebrate our 150 years of being alive November 4th, and we're pretty excited about it.


As far as the Web goes, we basically have a few pages up since 150 years ago and they have not been updated. At all. And we have a range of content because a department will bring in a student worker and, stopping if this sounds really vaguely unfamiliar, and then the student worker will leave, and then they'll bring in an intern, and then that intern will leave, and you'll have this process, and everyone is terrified to delete anything. So you have this range of chaos gathering around their different departments.

We also have a couple of special flowers in our garden, most of which is medicine, law school, and business school, and they of course have a little bit of money to run their own IT departments and have their own designers and all of that fun stuff, which makes it really effective when you are trying to brand yourself as a university.


So we went through a reputation-building initiative, fancy words that are basically saying, 'We needed a consistent brand.' Part of that process was taking our logos and coming up with a single one, coming up with some unified school colors, and work in coming up with tool kits to make it really easy for those different departments to apply a general template without having to create something themselves and work on their content so we could carve out a few decades of words that were irrelevant.

Jason Beard: At Seattle University, we did something on a much smaller scale. Or actually we're doing it right now. We're doing a content audit.

We're sitting down an editor from, say, admissions, that will be next week when I get back, and we're going through every single page on our site. We're evaluating each page on a scale, we're grading each page from A to F. We're identifying pages that we can just chuck, things we don't need, outdated content, things we don't have to manage anymore.


It enables us to do better with the stuff that we have so we don't have to focus on the random otherness that we need to get rid of. In other words, if we can't do a thousand pages well, maybe we can do a hundred pages well. And that's really all that we need to be successful.

Chris Heiland: As far as adoption, plan to change staffing for the future. You have to look ahead. Stay nimble, change job descriptions, hire and fire if necessary, but make sure that your department, your area, is able to handle what's coming next.

Jason Beard: As we all know, universities sometimes work a little bit slowly. If you're able to plan ahead and talk to your leadership before you need a position, you're more likely to get the position when you actually do need it. Which is all a way to say, create experts.


And when I say 'experts,' I just mean people that can fulfill their role on the university website without needing support or causing massive headaches for ourselves. By creating experts, we enable people to do their jobs more effectively.

Seth Meranda from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, "If you're working on the web you need some level of expertise," and this is absolutely right. We have experts doing design, doing development, and running our servers, and we wouldn't have it any other way. We need to have experts doing content and support as well, and very few of our universities do.

Web writing takes expertise in subject matter along with web writing skills.

Actually, from a show of hands, how many people have professors or administrative assistants or program assistants managing their content on  university websites? See, that's a lot of you.


They know about the business program, they know about the academic affairs office, they know about Biology, but they don't necessarily know how to write for the Web. So helping train them to write for the Web just by giving them a simple one-sheet or a two-sheet, break down your paragraphs into lists. Do some of the usability and accessibility things that we have all heard about earlier today.

Now these people don't have to be part of the web team, and as you can see, most of them aren't. But that doesn't mean that we can't train them to help be successful. Effective tools make it easier to grow and to train experts.

And this gets back to what we had talked about with our Kentico CMS is that since they needed to learn less about how to operate the CMS, they are able to be more successful and focus on the web writing in keeping their pages up-to-date.


Buy-in. You have to get buy-in. Campus leadership has got to let you do what you need to do in order to be successful. But the campus community has got to believe in what you're doing at the same time. In short, we have got to lead. You've got to be a leader on your campus.

In order to do that, you've got to understand your institution's culture. Seattle University has a very different culture than the University of Washington. University of Washington has a very different culture than University of Nebraska-Lincoln, even though they're both major research universities.

You've got to do your homework. And this means data, this means talking to your audience, this means doing user testing, this means talking to your leadership to make sure that you can do what you want to do.


I have a quick question: how many people here do website usability testing? Actually, keep your hands up. And how many people here share that information freely via a blog, a website or something similar? All right. That's pretty good.

A lot of times, and I'm sure many of us can relate to this, a lot of times people will question what we're doing as designers or question people as developers. 'Why did you make this a certain way?' Having that data helps you do whatever you need to do just to say, 'Look, nobody wanted that 'give' button on the website. Here's data that supports that.'

Chris Heiland: What can we do? More homework. To wrap it up, though, is, communicate. Make sure you're on the same page as everybody else. Adapt. Know that the web department from five years ago is not going to be able to handle the Web five years from now.


Create experts. You can't do everything, but you can provide support so that you have people on campus that are able to do better. Get buy-in. Use data, use whatever tools you have at your disposal. Get your leadership, get your departments excited and wanting to see where you're going to take them next, because you're leading them in that direction.

Jason Beard: Thanks for listening. What we wanted to do was, first, take any questions. If you don't have any questions, we've got some for you.

Chris Heiland: Please step up to the mike.

Audience: I do have one question. Where are you finding your content editors, web editors and writers? We've got two MFAs, and they wanted to be writers. We tried to teach them about usability and things like that, but they're still too verbose.


Jason Beard: At Seattle University, we've got 300 or so content editors. Very, very few of them have any formal writing training, at least that I'm aware of. Like I said, they're all program assistants and things of that nature. For the people that are creative writers, or you described them as MFAs, you mean...

Audience: Well, we've got those 300 out there who use a Drupal, but I've got...

Jason Beard: Oh, I see what you're saying.

Audience: ...content editor for my web services team. But you find that there's a lot of them out there are MFAs center because the copywriter/journalist that kind of write concisely and to the point is what the web users want to join. So, no they might reach a good ten lines for the MFA but they're not going to get you the quick step...

Jason Beard:  Uhmm and that's absolutely true. I worked with a professor once who insisted on paragraphs that were 200 words long and insisted that everyone would read them too. And some battles you just can't but even when I showed her the research like, you know, people will really want to skim this stuff. They don't want to read. They don't need all the background information you're trying to tell them. They want to see bullet points. For her that didn't matter. For her it was all about what she wanted to write and those people you're never going to convince but the vast majority will take the one sheet and go like, this is fabulous thank you and they'll do it.

31:00 We'll go here first.

Audience 2:  I have said then that you have and not this kind of writer and I love that you have that writing should effort and comparing to all the web contents and some, if you really copy wrote it add a professional to your department, technical writers, marketing writers, journalists because you can give the non-experts the ones who accept and that will help you as soon as the stuff gets in and expert, there are people who wrote professionally and I should say.

Audience 3:  On the idea of experts, like personally for me I'm a jack of all trades. I burn my web  key and the idea of training with these experts, they rarely live up to my expectations because I've done everything in all the years. How do you go about training them so that you could feel confident that they're an expert.
Jason Beard: That's a good question. So, so at Seattle U we do CMS training about once a month. We got about 20-25 people show up each time and that just makes them able to use the CMS in a way that makes us comfortable. We know that they're running the proper methods. When it comes to writing we don't have the staff, we're a team of two and we've got a developer over in the IT department. We don't have the staffing to actually go and check all their work but as we find problems on the web we'll just send them PDF of the, like here's how to write for the web and hope that things get better. I'm not sure if that really answers your question but...

Audience 3:  Perhaps we can fix it then.

Chris Heiland:  Yeah. Oh and part of it is the tools making sure that they can focus on the writing. They can focus on the experience as opposed to focusing on how do I use this thing. And then it is just a constant training. It's again and again just kind of every quarter, every semester, every couple of months having that repeated training so that it's not a one-time a year deal.
Jason Beard: Yeah.

Audience 3:  We've tried that. We had the same visual coming to the training, get out of work. So, you know we did the writing, web accessibility and then to write in the web that sort of thing and what we do and the constant thing and training soon, so that's my fear is that we're just going to have 25 people that show up to every single one. And I mean to think ways to not to do that.

Audience 4:  But the training isn't going to make them experts. Training, I mean training somebody if we have to go learn how to Dreamweaver and they come every three months because they have forgotten they used it once, they haven't used it for three months then come back to relearn it. And then how can they become experts?

Audience 3:  Experience. Experience in that...

Audience 4:  Exactly. The problem that I find is that you have to do it all day everyday to become an expert and if they're not doing it all day everyday, good luck.
Jason Beard: Now I've, I think it's interesting what you just said about experience.

Chris Heiland:  Right.

Jason Beard: In that this doesn't happen at Seattle U very often but it did happen at Bethel where we'd have student workers managing their websites who would be temporary employees for six months, they'd leave for the summer or graduate and then all of a sudden that institutional knowledge and that experience is gone and I'm going to have to train some new student or the full time staffer that was already busy, now just has this extra 10% added on. So building that level of experience is really important.

Chris Heiland:  And I think part of that is keep prioritizing. You know, web content should be something not where you have someone, they don't have to be full time but they have to be there everyday and they're not just handing it off to someone that's temporary or someone that is going to leave. Make it something where the person is a valuable part of what you're trying to do is have people be able to see what your website is and get something out of your content it's an important role.
Jason Beard: Uhmm.

Audience 5:  So in your different universities, do you feel like you've found a good rhythm between the web team and IT working together, have you overcome these challenges or you should working about whatever? Some of these guys that you...

Jason Beard: So I'll speak first. We're struggling a little bit at Seattle U and my personal view is that it's because, so our IT department is a vendor, it's Sun Guard so. OK. So Sun Guard. They've got different organizational goals than the university does. They will do everything within the contract and they'll do it very well but sometimes like with my history I'm expecting them to be a little bit more flexible than they generally are.
We're trying to find, we're trying to identify common goals and then work toward those common goals right now. So it's, we're just trying to do a lot of things in this presenta-- like we mentioned in this presentation. Starting to have more one-on-one meetings. Trying to get know them on a personal level so we can work better together. Just being able to call ahead and like I said, you know what? I'm sorry we didn't think about this but we need to launch tomorrow at four o'clock. Now can you sneak me in in your project plan today. And being able to have that relationship and be successful. So we're still working on that at Seattle U.

Chris Heiland:  I would say we are in a little bit better spot where we used... we are just big that's our biggest problem is that IT is a completely separate organization that is internal but they have their own projects they recently or we recently as an institution wen to through a huge, because the economy is doing fantastic, money did not exist as a problem.
Yeah, there was a lot of staffing changes and we have to hurry if we need the market and part of that, already got our web education building, was we need a market, we need to get ourselves out of there. We need to do that and of course that takes something. That takes technology or that takes time or that takes resources. So we have a fairly good relationship with IT. We try and ask them or we ask them to do things and they do the best they can with the resources that they have. We're desperately trying working on communication. They're trying to desperately, as a whole, work on more outreach for the campus just as trying to get more people to have the understanding kind of where they were coming from and to the old relationships on their end.

So I would say we have the building of relationships kind of from both end which is helping and just to not exist in the past, it's still a work in progress. We're still a long way from having complete success. We've come very far though.
Jason Beard: OK. I just want to add on what I've said earlier that part of our frustration is that we're having significant resource problems. We formally had a half-time student that was helping do some of the work. That position went away and one of the developers kind of get pulled in to a different part of the university so we're down to just one developer. So for us there's, there's just a lot of stuff to do and we don't have the time to do it and so that added tension in our jobs is adding tension to our relationship.

Audience 7:  Do you have copies of having the assassination?


RPC talked to, that busy, he and either one of them know what they're talking about and they're trying to go through to the IT guy and his boss said, oh no you don't need to do that  and it's probably going to end with me checking the plug.
So I think that time is of the essence to be able to raise, be able to change and all of that information.

Jason Beard: I like to formally go on record to saying that I don't recommend murder.

Audience 7:  I don't either but it's like for me it looks like the only option.

Jason Beard: But if you can point them to a higher paying job in the private sector, maybe that would work. I think it's about, I think the most effective thing to do would be trying to educated them, as someone that they will listen. At Seattle University we're just hiring a CIO. I think they started today. It's their first day as a CIO. So we will actually have someone should be listening and have that knowledge noted to hopefully fix our problem that we're having with resources. So I guess my answer would try to educate them.
Chris Heiland:  And one of the things that we found in our research is with the data is probable than possible and trying to figure out what their goals are as what they're trying to do and see if you can work what you're trying to do within their goal. So if they're worried about losing staff or losing resources, try and work around that scenarios so that it doesn't feel like you're taking something away from them.

Jason Beard: Yeah. The best, actually we're on this one real quick. So Bethel University, we quoted one of the gentlemen from there twice. He is able to form that team because his team though reports to the VP of IT and web communications so neither one of them lost team or lost budget. This kind of well everything shared so that's why they were able to get on board with that.

Chris Heiland:  All right two minutes left so one more question.

Jason Beard: Yeah.

Audience 8:  The kind of reply to your assassination idea. I kind of had a similar thing with marketing them because I'm the web surf staff. And it really took a, she had to leave and go through the new job and then come back and realize that you know, those things are universal, she just has to get over and learn so that's, you know, something that may not stick until they learn or get educated or informed.
Chris Heiland:  Unfortunately we keep things like that. Yes one more.

Audience 9:  I'll give question on...

Jason Beard: Yeah.

Audience 9: I mean is it possible for that kinds of ...

Jason Beard: Yes.

Audience 9: The data shows also what's not successful and what's successful.

Jason Beard: We couldn't really tell. So I guess my answer is no. I mean we found that for design, the vast majority of us consider ourselves successful at design and the vast majority of us, the design is in the marketing communications department but we couldn't really determine the cause or relationship there. So actually that reminds me, I forgot to put in the presentation but our data is freely available and I'll be tweeting a link.
We'll also make the presentation slides available after the, at the end of today. So we've cleaned the data, sanitized it, no names are attached but you'll at least be able to see what people filled out and how people rank their universities. I think that's all the time so thank you very much everybody.